November 1st, 2007
Teach a man to fish
Language, it’s a funny beast.
There’s a big issue in the world of webcomics surrounding the use of one word… ‘notability’.
You should read this, if you’re interested.
If you didn’t fancy clicking on that link I’ll paraphrase; Wikipedia and webcomics are not mixing well at the moment. Many entries concerned with webcomics are being removed because it is thought that these articles, and the webcomics themselves are not of sufficient ‘notability’ to be included = a lot of distressed webcomickers.
So, what do you think? Should webcomics be included in the ‘pedia? How do you define ‘notable’? And If you could only ever say one word, what would it be?
Sean on 
Maddie on
I don’t care for the idea that Wikipedia should be restricted to notable subjects. I believe Wikipedia should encompass all information available in the world. It would be like the internet but formatted better.
Since communicating any thoughts of any complexity whatsoever would be impossible if I were restricted to only one word, I would have to choose “f**k”, which is appropriate in every situation.
Well duh. This has been going on for ages. It points to one of the areas where Wikipedia is by self-definition weakest - its coverage of web-based phenomena in general. Wikipedia runs on its notability criteria, and since its notability criteria pretty much requires non-web-based citation in order to denote ‘reliable’ notability, phenomena such as webcomics, which can get pretty big online without ever being noticed by offline media, fall directly into the big hole left there. Add to that little Hitlers who like to go around deleting articles for not being notable enough and it is no surprise that there is an issue.
Did you see what Kris Straub did over at http://shorterlink.com/?4YS3CT ?
does sign language count?
I disagree with TGJB. I think that if there was an undertaking to format the internet better, then a few other things, like the cure for cancer or a pollution-free energy source, might drop off mankind’s ‘to do’ list under the workload.
If webcomics want to be included in Wkpda then they should work harder to become ‘of note’, like all the ones that are currently included.
Remember that being included in the ‘ped doesn’t necessarily relate to the quality of one’s webcomic, merely to the size and enthusiasm of its readership. Hey - your comic might only be widely appreciated after you’re dead. Van Gogh made it to Wiki, so might your brilliant webcomic.
On another note - I have an idea for a comic that I feel only you can draw: my digital camera (and I’m assuming many other digicams) has a setting where it will play the sound of an SLR shutter clacking when it takes a photo. It doesn’t have to do this, but the option is there. I’ve noticed that some mobile phone cameras do this too. Why is this necessary? What other new, improved technologies are designed to emulate the things they replaced so that people don’t get too freaked out at the New World Order? I’m thinking mobile phones with ye olde winde upe telephone ringtones already exist, why not laptops that play a soundtrack of harddrive checking, floppy disc-drive grinding, and screen turning on boinking? How about an iPod that plays a bit of needle-find-the-groove static before each song? A Prius with hidden external speakers that play super-loud V8 sounds?
Flow it, field.
Webcomics should totally be allowed on the pedia… I was one of the many unfortunate webcomics to be kicked out long ago.
My one word might be ‘f**k’ or something else with multiple meanings.
Personally I like the word f**k.
Hey you guys should relax, I have never even been on wiki.
Some one should write an article on me.
About the comic.
It is an interesting statement on the way the mind works.
I think humans are very similar, tho with more complex desires.
I mean, I like bananas, but…………
Hey there.
GJB, the first f**k of the day, nice… In fact we have a bunch of f**ks here… It is a useful word, flexible too.
Wayne, thanks for the link, as it happens I hadn’t read that but if I did I would have mentioned it.
Personally, I’ve never really pushed for a wiki entry… The Flowfield Unity has appeared in several literary journals and a few science-related publications over the last couple of years, as well as being available to buy in print, but I still don’t consider that ‘notable’.
Tia, yes and no. Well, mostly no. Sign language would be cheating a little, unless you chose just one sign. Do you sign?
Franzy, that’s a pretty interesting idea… It’s like the ‘fan slots’ painted onto the old ZX Spectrum computers because people thought that they were so powerful they would overheat without a fan… I’ll see what I can do. you’ll get the credit for it though.
Matt, I’m sorry for your loss, just out of interest though, did you ever get much traffic or use from your comic’s entry?
Ben, you should be on wikipedia, somewhere… I might write an article…
I didn’t get much traffic from initially having my comic page created, but once I was spotted by the powers that be and was considered for deletion, I got 100 or so unique hits out of it.
f**k is great word, its a fabulous word and i say it far too often, especially in front of my teachers. ive learnt to figure out which ones care and which ones dont. and, i agree with the great joe there, i think the old wiki should include everything. but i guess there has to be a limit SOMEwhere, and not everyone is ever gonna agree what that limit is. so, it seems to me that its up to the people who run it. if theres stuff in there you dont wanna look at, dont go look at it.
TG-Joe-B, did you know that as the internet ramped up, Douglas Adams saw the potential to create a “real” Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, in the sense that it would be a repository for all knowledge and wisdom? He called it H2G2, after Gaiman’s shortening of his book title I believe, and built it much the way Wikipedia was built. And the best part: it’s still there, being hosted by the BBC [http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/]. Problem is, it never picked up the way Adams would have liked, and has since been eclipsed by Wikipedia.
Semi-related, has anyone read the Flight anthologies, edited by Kazu Kibuishi [http://www.boltcity.com/copper/]? Apparently, a great many of the artists, at least in the first one, were exclusively web-based, met through the internet, et cetera. The afterward to volume one (I wish I could find it on the internet) by Scott McCloud, is really interesting, talking about how webcomics “bite back,” and the future of comics-in-general as a form of expression. This anthology has provided “notability” to most of the artists in it, it seems.
Oops… missed something in me HTML.
adam, are you crazy? if that isn’t notable then nothing is.
i’ve been learning a bit of sign, and my favorite is “shove it up your ***”
thanks for that link roo, i’m a big Adams fan
As a matter of fact I did know about H2G2. I’ve been a fan of Douglas Adams for many years now. I was hoping it would become the all-encompassing repository of information, but I guess that’s out now.
What I always liked about Wikipedia is that it strives to be entirely interconnected, so when you’re reading about cloacas and want to hear more about sea cucumbers then you can click on the word “sea cucumbers” and go to that article. Have you noticed how much harder it is to find actual information just using the internet in general? I get so tired of their ruthless editing, though. Like this irritating rule about trivia sections. SOME INFORMATION IS BETTER DELIVERED THROUGH UNORDERED LISTS OF FACTS!!!
I’m with Great Joe. There should be a wiki-format “Sum of All Knowledge” somewhere.
If Wikipedia wishes to restrict itself only to “notable” subjects, then that’s ok too. <i<It’s their wiki.
After all, I wouldn’t want someone telling me what I can or can’t put in my webcomic.
Oh I forgot to say my one word: painkillers
I love your idea, Franzy. I’ve seen things like that before and never really thought about it much. Like CDs designed to look like floppy disks. And cordless house phones designed to look old radial dial phones from the 50s. Although those are more of a, “let’s bring back pointless paraphernalia from the past and sell it because it looks cool,” rather than a, “let’s pretend this is something different from what it really is so people don’t get too freaked out,” situation. There’s definitely something to be said for packaging small things in giant cases for purely aesthetic reasons, though.
As for my word… if “Mmmm” counts as a word, that would be it, since it’s so terribly neutral. If I could mumble that in addition to my word, I think I would make my word “No.” Like the girl from Once Upon a Mattress, only she said “yes.” I guess I’m just a more negative person. But that way if I wanted to say “yes,” I could just nod my head. And then mumble “Mmm” for everything else.
And I think wikipedia should include just about everything. It’s more fun that way. Plus it’s extremely irritating if you’re going to look up some extremely random information and they don’t have it.
Re: the Hitch Hikers guide.
I look at GPS uinits and I wonder why they can’t be made into similar devices.
Just some text and light pics that can be d/l’d from sats. Kinda like lonley planet guide books, but more useful and with an upload feature.
Doesn’t Wikipedia have like, some massivly long article about all the different types of Jedi? yes, yes it does. wait..
*goes looks for something*
http://www.cracked.com/article_14981_8-most-needlessly-detailed-wikipedia-entries.html
proof that there are very stupid things on wikipedia, so there.
And what word would i use? “love” “f**k” “bugger”, some other swearword or my boy/girlfriends name if i happen to have one at the time of losing all other words.
nah, in reality i have no idea. just one word, for a person who talks as much as me? not possible.
You know, I forgot to say my one word too: “conculavit.”
I haven’t had much sleep recently, so I’m rather stupid at the moment..what’s a conculavit Roo?
Hey Adam - I’m touched. If you draw the comic, I’ll draw you a comic and put it on my site as tribute!
Maddie: I don’t think the translation would get through moderation. It’s a Latin word that is considered one of the dirtiest word in history (or so I’m told, historians can be a bit silly). Lets just say it puts together words for female genitalia, a persons bottom, and an erection, all crammed into one word, which can also be used as a verb (much like the more favoured f**k). Oh, and thanks for that link. Good article.
You know, I never answered the Wiki question, because I’ve been thinking about it this whole time. I think notability, in this case (H2G2 or some such can be a case to not worry about it), is not a bad idea. But I think the definition could use some revision, such that internet phenomena can be included. It’s not like the internet isn’t important these days. For example go to www DOT neuroquantology DOT com, and you’ll find the website of an international journal on how quantum physics intersect with the study of consciousness. It’s peer-reviewed. It’s respected. It’s cited by top level researchers. It’s only published electronically. Also, it has no Wikipedia page.
Ah, awesome. ta for the explanation. my new favourite word
well, it would be except my new favourite word is still gubbymint. i have a new favourite insult though-”You biscuit-licking tailwag!” it’s funny..
Ah, that’s a great insult. I still, however, like “you goat-pleasuring son of a one-eyed whore!”
Wow, that’s a pretty great insult. the current one going round school is “you div” but my old favourite is calling someone a “dippy”
Wow, I’ve never heard either ‘div’ or ‘dippy.’ I wonder if that means I’m getting old, or I’ve been to long in the USA?
I prefer the classics… ‘cad’ and ‘n’er-do-well’
Ah n’er-do-well. That is a good one: tried and true. Then there’s always the classics of “you English ka-niggits!” and “you mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries!”
Don’t worry Roo, no one actually appears to know what a “div” is. and a dippy is just a daftie, but sounds cooler
Ah, ne’er-do-well is a great insult. so is”your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries” but then you have to say “now go away, or i shall torment you once more! i fart in your general direction” with the correct french accent.
Has any one heard the main two chav insults? if in an argument with one, they will be almost garunteed to say either “your mum” or “yeah maaaate” me and a mate translated these to old fashioned english, and we find it hilarious:”thoust mother!” and “yeah friend!” the yeah is prounounced “yay” of course, but in a posh enlgish accent. try it sometime, it’s well funny, ennit?
Haha, I had to look up “chav.” It’s hillarious, because “your mom” jokes are fairly ubiquitous over here, and my dictionary defines chavs as “fixated on fashions derived from American hip hop.” And the hip-hop thing has taken the pop culture over here by storm. This will teach you that the majority of Americans are odd in the head (or at least American pop-culture). I’m definitely using “thoust mother!” in general conversation form now on.
Maddie, has anyone ever told you that your (presumed) accent comes through, even in print? I read what you right, and I hear a British accent so thick it almost unsettles me. “It’s well funny, ennit?” Makes me wonder about the cultural phenomenon of internet slang, teenagers that grew up with the internet, and colloquialism. My fiancee’s little sister (almost exactly your age) “sounds” distinctly American on the internet, the same way you sound distinctly British. Does this hold for all teenagers raised with the internet?
Ben, do Aussie kids sound Aussie in print?
Oooh, I should’ve gone into sociology. This make a really neat thesis. Hahahaha!
over here, a chav is just the new word for essex girls, or at least according to my parents. but really, i think it’s a whatsitmajig for “council house” something “vermin” but I’m not sure. chavs amuse me anyways.
“thoust mother!” makes me laugh so much i sound like a guinea pig squeaking
Well Roo, no one’s ever told me I sound british in print, though that is indeed my accent, so you presumed correctly. i guess it’s cos i type how i speak, which is ungrammatically (on occassion) attempted posh (again, rarely) and with a heck of a lot of made up words. and, i picked up a part of some accent that makes me cut out “the” sometimes, can’t remember accent, but it’s on an old british TV show called “I didn’t know you cared” anyone heard of it, and can tell me accent? see, even as I’m typing i’m not saying”the” very often, yet when i read what i’ve typed i can still hear it, if that makes sense?
I’m not very good at telling where people are from by how they type, but then i mix up irish and scottish accents so i’m a bit of a dippy really.
Actually, we should find some excuse to study that thesis..i wonder if I can use in any of my gcse subjects..prob’ly not.
Roo, I’m sorry for being stupid, but where do you live? are you american? as i already explained, i can’t actually tell..
I love this site. We write theses on sociology for fun. =D
It really does sound quite exciting, though.
Although I’m not terribly good at identifying people’s nationality through the way they type.
I’m American but I watch a lot of British TV (mostly Doctor Who, Monty Python, and some older sitcoms on my local PBS station) and I’ve always fancied myself a skilled mimic, so I sometimes slip into borrowed British accents. I also slip into various borrowed American Southern-type accents on occasion when I’m bored (my natural accent is entirely flat).
now that Roo’s mentioned it, i can’t read anything Maddie wrote without getting that accent.
Hi Roo.
No offence to the young-un’s that are online, but I have noticed that most young ppl have the worst grammar imaginable.
If a 5 word sentence takes close to 30secs to decipher, there is a problem.
No accent is discernable from such shocking typing.
(not refferring to you or Justine there, Maddie).
TGJB, I often mimic the dominant accent of those around me.
It is annoying, I suddendly find myself talking in an accent I don’t know.
If I try and do it intentionally, I fail miserably.
Chav here means a guy who wears adidas nylon track pants and jumper, gold or silver bling, hangs out clubs/rave and sells/takes chem drugs.
Always white, normally pale and unfit. Also often considered a try-hard or wanker.
i cant see how i, for one, would sound particularly aussie in typing (?), but someone recently told me i write exactly how i speak. this unsettles me slightly, im worried that my lit essays are full of oddities and terrible grammar.
wait, it just occurred to me that maybe i speak like a lit essay.
the thought unsettles me even more.
Gods, speaking like a Lit essay would be unsettling, wouldn’t it?
Maddy, I’m a student at Virginia Tech, in the USA (that’s in the South), so I get a lot of Appalachian accents around here. I read somewhere that the Appalachian mountain accent is the closest thing left in the world to the “normal” British accent of the 16 and 1700’s, during the imperial expansion. The divergence is astounding.
To be fair, though, I was raised in a military family, and learnt English while my family was living in Liverpool. The Brit in my speech has faded considerably, but never altogether.
TGJB: have you ever seen The Lady Killers? Best put-on Southern accent I’ve ever heard (by which I mean: I laughed till it hurt every time he opened his mouth).
Ben, don’t you think that the only way the accent can come out in the typing is the grammar though? “Proper” grammar’s proper no matter where you are, but the “improper” grammar changes by region. So thus you can tell an Aussie by his (or her) unintelligible grammar…?
You know I wanted to say something about the chav thing, but I can’t figure out a short way to say it without sounding racist, so I’m just going to give up, because I’m not a racist. Getting into racial dynamics in the United States is a separate sociology thesis, not to mention depressing.
As far as I’m aware, the word ‘Chav’ stems from the Romany word for ‘boy’, but has become appropriated to mean ’scally’… the was an urban myth circulating that it was actually an acronym for ‘council housed and violent’, but that’s not true.
As for accents, when you read Chaucer, you’re supposed to read it in almost a Birmingham (UK) accent… the Brummies have something similar to the oldest type of British accent knocking about.
Yeah, that’s what Wikipedia says about Chavs.
Ah, Chaucer. So true… it was really hard trying to get through it while “translating,” but when you just let go and pronounce it the way it’s spelt (with some odd rules you learn in the appendix), it flows so much better!
How coincidental. I was just reading the Canterbury tales a few days ago. I read a translation, though, so I’m not sure the Birmingham accent would really help too much.
In terms of randomly switching accents, Ben, I do that on occasion, as well. There really doesn’t even need to be someone with that accent speaking near me, I’ll just switch. Sometimes I find myself randomly speaking with a British accent, unable to stop. I know some of my friends do that, too. That’s interesting. =)
Tia-very interesting, very interesting indeed.
Ben-Ah, but my ungrammatical ness is deliberate, because that’s just how i talk! of course, my essays are creepy because I write them so grammatically correct that it sounds posh when you read it.
actually, it’s like this. i talk to friends how i type to you guys on here, and I talk on the phone to strangers how I write my essays. the difference is pretty amazing.
Oh and Ben, don’t worry, I pick people’s accents up b accident and yet despite being half welsh, cannot do even a welsh accent to save me life!
Roo-Yay, you have a little bit of british in you! most americans would use that as an excuse to sit in a bowl of disinfectant for an hour every day, but then that’s only the racist little americans in my head, they probably don’t actually exist..or do they?
Justine-i don’t know how you talk, but you talk fine. not too posh, nore too slangy. I’m sure you’re the same as me and write essays differently to how you speak, but chat to internet mates as you would aloud, no?
TGJB-that’s interesting. I didn’t work out that Adam was english, yet i could’ve sworn you were. maybe those English TV shows have an effect on you? but as I said to Roo before, i can’t actually do the reading accents thing, i just..you..seemed english? i dunno…it’s too late, I’m too tired to work it out.
Easca-me too, except I don’t tend to even know what accent I’m doing. and sometimes, i act like a drunk even though i have never been drunk, simply because walking funny annoys people and talking like a drunk is amazingly fun.
As I was just denying the ability to percieve accents from written word or typing, this is a bit embarrassing.
A young friend from the UK just popped online, her first line made me LOL, the “accent” was so strong. But really, it is the grammar and choice of words that give the impression of accent.
Well I am gonna go to tafe and spend a full day making redneck jokes in a southern drawl.
two things Ben-one, what’s a tafe? and two-day? which country are you in, and what time is it?
Maddie, I do that, too! Sometimes I’ll just start weaving around and slurring my words for no reason. It is quite fun, isn’t it?
In terms of typing, I think I always use a more formal tone when I’m writing, whether it’s online or for an essay, or anything, really. It’s probably because I can see the post, and so I just HAVE to make sure that the grammar and everything is perfect. Since I have time to review what I’m writing, I always feel like I have to make sure I’m saying the right thing. That’s why I prefer talking to people face-to-face; there’s less pressure. =)
The other thing I do is use internet slang when I’m talking to people, like “brb, omg, rofl, wtf, wth tyvm,” etc, but I don’t really use them that much online. I guess I just don’t like the way they look in print or something. It’s really quite odd.
I speak almost exactly the same way I write. Even when I write fiction I narrate it as myself talking.
TAFE is like a tech college, where you can learn trades and extra high-school crap. It is a level below uni and often more trade based, rather then academic.
?Two-day?
I am on the East Coast of Australia, it is currently 2204 and raining.
Elevation is approx. 600m
About the same elevation as me. I think it’s a good in-between, not too high, not too low.
Maddie: I don’t know why anyone would “sit in a bowl of disinfectant” at all over here. Our racists are much more… proactive, lets say. And they don’t mind the British at all: you guys are white. Racial problems here tend to reach back either to African slavery, or immigration problems with Mexico and the rest of Latin America. For a snap-shot of some of the crazy people out there, check out the National Vanguard, a group dedicated to “preserving White American culture and race.” They’re considered a pretty crazy bunch by the main-stream, really, but they fact that they can carry on for the KKK (their words, not mine!) so blatantly points to deeper social issues. From the Wikipedia page on them:
“In the wake of Hurricane Katrina, which struck the U.S. Gulf Coast on August 29, 2005, a National Vanguard First Response Team was organized to help white families in Alabama and Mississippi [6]. Their decision to help only white victims of Katrina has been described as “reprehensible”. [7]” (Katrina did the most damage to historically “black” neighborhoods in New Orleans, neighborhoods that were too poor to even attempt to re-build. The only white people in these areas that were affected were mildly wealthy to begin with.)
Easca-by God, you’re me in some other country! sometimes when i make a crappy joke i will actually say “LOL” in this really annoying voice, and i have to bite my tongue to stop me saying “WTF” instead of my usual saying, “what the fudge?”
but yes, acting drunk is fun. expecially after you’ve just had coffe
Roo-fair enough. Lets face it, I’m not very up-to-date am i? yet i could tell you almost anything about America’s current banks’ states. only cos dad told me it all
[...] comic was mostly inspired by what Franzy said back in the comments to ‘Teach a man to fish‘, thanks [...]
Thought I would mention that Iam anent’s teaching my laptop the recognise my handwriting. This would be easier if I could read it myself. so far only two errors. It is doing better then me. *blush*
It did miss a few caps tho, so, I think a day or two without a firewall will teach it too behave!